Survivor (series)

[Clappy]

Spoiler

Adam deserved to win from all those that were left in the final three, although if David was there, it wouldn't have been a clean sweep like it turned out to be.  But damn good season.  Don't know where I would rank it out of 33, but definitely Top 10, possibly Top 5.  Can't wait for Game Changes.  With all those players coming back, guarantee that it will be just as good as this season, possibly better.

 

[Hayden]

Hannah won that objectively, too bad the Jury gave credit to a follower like Adam because of that family circumstance ace in the hole.

Game Changers looks like a shark jump. Probst was advertising each person on that stage like a shiny object. They should've just put together a better preview.

Hope the editing gets its shit together next year, but 6 person finales might be the new normal.

[terminoob]

3 hours ago, Hayndeer said:

Hannah won that objectively, too bad the Jury gave credit to a follower like Adam because of that family circumstance ace in the hole.

Game Changers looks like a shark jump. Probst was advertising each person on that stage like a shiny object. They should've just put together a better preview.

Hope the editing gets its shit together next year, but 6 person finales might be the new normal.

Right, like how Spencer won it objectively in Cambodia because he was a huge strategist and even saved Jeremy by telling him to play his idol, but then the jury wanted to give Jeremy the money instead because of his baby.

No, Adam had that on lock before final tribal even started. Everyone on that jury, aside from maybe Michelle, was always going to vote Adam out of those three people. Jay was going to, which meant Taylor and Will would as well, Chris was going to, which meant Bret and Sunday would as well, Zeke was going to because he didn't respect Ken and Hannah flipped on him in order to advance David's game and not her own, David 100% knew what he was doing by dragging Hannah and Ken to the end so there was no way he would vote for two people that he clearly knew were huge goats (as did everyone - read exit interviews, you'll see basically everyone's ideal final 3 was with Hannah and Ken), and Jessica probably would've voted for Ken if he stuck to his morals and at least had David go to fire but he lost her vote when he nixed David. Michelle was the only one that could've been swayed by Adam's story because she was the only person there with a decent relationship with Hannah, but even that's kind of up in the air. Hannah had practically zero social connections because of how untrustworthy she was. Adam sort of flipped on Zeke (if they were even in a close alliance, exit interviews say they weren't) but aside from that he stuck with his group and just let the game run its course as he made one-on-one connections with everyone in the game and then articulated at tribal who the threats were and made it a point to show the jury that he wanted those threats out of the game (he says as much in his winner interview). People rewarded Adam because they liked him and because he was playing to win, not because his mom was dying. Maybe that fact shed some light on some moves he was making and why he played the way he did, but the jury clearly didn't care about that too much and wanted him to win regardless because there's no chance it changed every single jury vote. He wins by 1 or 2? Sure, his mom probably has something to do with it. A shutout? Not even kind of.

[Hayden]

The shutout proves the Jury system needs to be changed.

Adam was much more of a goat than the two people he was sitting next to. 

It's unfortunate how sexist the Jury was.

[Clappy]

On 12/15/2016 at 9:18 PM, Hayndeer said:

The shutout proves the Jury system needs to be changed.

Adam was much more of a goat than the two people he was sitting next to. 

It's unfortunate how sexist the Jury was.

I actually would love to hear how you think Adam, who was behind nearly every single elimination except the drawing of rocks, is the goat in comparison to Hannah who often freaked out every single tribal council and Ken who was so clueless to a majority of the moves going on.

[Hayden]

43 minutes ago, Clappy said:

I actually would love to hear how you think Adam, who was behind nearly every single elimination except the drawing of rocks, is the goat in comparison to Hannah who often freaked out every single tribal council and Ken who was so clueless to a majority of the moves going on.

Figgy and partially Will? I didn't know 2 eliminations were every single elimination. Hannah controlled how Adam voted. Zeke and Hannah both agreed that Adam was the stupid douche in their alliance. He played both idols wrong. Hannah was calm and calculated in every merge vote, Ken won immunities and made the hard move of cutting David (with Hannah swaying him too).

I'm just sick of bitter Jurors. Sunday/Bret didn't vote based on strategy, they voted based on Adam blaming his lack of loyalty to their deal on Hannah. Chris voted along with them because he's dumb as dirt. While I was a fan of Jay, he definitely treated Hannah like shit. Michelle seems to have just voted how Jay wanted her to vote, even though she gave Hannah credit for voting right every time. Same @ Taylor. David/Jessica while trying to hide it were probably furious with Ken/Hannah for not securing David a win and keeping their "loyalty". Zeke was a pissy baby because Hannah chose to work with David longer than she chose to work with him. Adam used his mother as leverage and lucked into the luckiest win ever. That Jury would've voted Bret to win over his ass.

Adam is the next Mike Holloway, but without the immunity run to back him up. 

[terminoob]

34 minutes ago, Clappy said:

I actually would love to hear how you think Adam, who was behind nearly every single elimination except the drawing of rocks, is the goat in comparison to Hannah who often freaked out every single tribal council and Ken who was so clueless to a majority of the moves going on.

While I definitely don't agree with Adam being a goat (he'd only lose to Jay and David, but so would everyone), I don't think he was really behind any eliminations either. He was in the majority but it felt like he played a rather UTR game and let David take the reigns. He ousted Figgy and Will, but Michelle was David's suggestion, Taylor was just a group consensus, Chris was David again, Jessica was rocks, Zeke was technically David and Will (though Adam probably ended up taking agency away from Will and stole the moment with his idol play, he could've saved it and the vote wouldn't have changed), Sunday was Hannah (though Adam helped flush Jay's idol), Jay was basically consensus, he couldn't save Bret, and I don't know how much sway Adam had when convincing Ken to vote David.

The main takeaway I got was that Adam was playing for himself. He wasn't playing for fourth, or third, or second, he was playing for first, and he knew what he needed to do in order to get there. He understood that the people in power positions were targeted over and over again, so he laid low and made social bonds with everyone in order to secure himself post-merge and that let him slide right on through to the final 4, where he was only targeted because he had to be. The moves he made benefitted him and his alliance, which helped portray him as a trustworthy person that was attempting to take out threats (like trying to idol out Zeke). Unlike someone like Hannah, who was making moves to secure David's position in the game. She had no incentive to flip to David - everyone was aware Zeke was a threat and they all wanted him gone eventually, but no one knew David was doing anything. If she had stuck with Zeke, cut David, they could've taken out the Gen X minority alliance and then she could've flipped on Zeke to secure her spot at the top (or cut David and Ken and then cut Zeke, use Sunday and Bret to take out Jay, then take out Jessica, and then coast to the end with Sunday and Will). Instead, she flipped to David and sunk her own game for no reason. Zeke sucks as a person? All the more reason to keep him around. I don't think Ken was clueless either, I think he was just more not into it. He didn't question any moves David made and he stuck by him and did what he said up until the Will vote, which was just really stupid. He tried playing with integrity but it's so hard to win the game with that because eventually you're going to be seen as a hypocrite and you either own up to it or you don't (and lose, like Coach). He isolated himself from the Gen Xers for no real reason and it led him to only really bonding with his core alliance, which didn't help because Jessica had already formed a super strong bond with Adam, he had to eventually backstab David, and he sat next to Hannah at the end.

[Clappy]

Since I don't feel like quoting, Adam was behind the Taylor votes.  That was definitely not a group decision because he made it clear to everyone to gun for the Michelle/Taylor/Will/Jay alliance since the merge.  I meant every post merge vote, Adam was a part of.  Sorry should have worded that better.  David may have taken the reigns, but Adam was smart after those first two post merge votes and take less of a front seat because he was getting obnoxious to everyone.  Hannah far from controlled how Adam voted except for only two votes: Sunday and Bret.  Just because she said she told Adam who to vote for in that final tribal discussion doesn't mean she did.  I don't buy that for a second.

[Hayden]

22 hours ago, Clappy said:

Since I don't feel like quoting, Adam was behind the Taylor votes.  That was definitely not a group decision because he made it clear to everyone to gun for the Michelle/Taylor/Will/Jay alliance since the merge.  I meant every post merge vote, Adam was a part of.  Sorry should have worded that better.  David may have taken the reigns, but Adam was smart after those first two post merge votes and take less of a front seat because he was getting obnoxious to everyone.  Hannah far from controlled how Adam voted except for only two votes: Sunday and Bret.  Just because she said she told Adam who to vote for in that final tribal discussion doesn't mean she did.  I don't buy that for a second.

Nothing to buy....we saw Hannah drag Adam along like a goat and then he got rewarded for it. It was right there in plain sight. Adam isn't the reason Michelle/Taylor/Will were targeted. Hannah was right, he wanted to be a cool kid, but when he didn't get into that group, Gen X and Hannah/Zeke used his emotional grudge to their advantage.

[terminoob]

2 hours ago, Hayndeer said:

Nothing to buy....we saw Hannah drag Adam along like a goat and then he got rewarded for it. It was right there in plain sight. Adam isn't the reason Michelle/Taylor/Will were targeted. Hannah was right, he wanted to be a cool kid, but when he didn't get into that group, Gen X and Hannah/Zeke used his emotional grudge to their advantage.

You're still omitting the final 5 and Adam's winner interviews where he lays out his entire strategy of making social connections and playing under the radar because he understood that power players got targeted (which is how he knew to sit on that idol for as long as he did and why he didn't play it at Michelle's elimination even though the edit was telling us he was on the chopping block). If you're going to claim Hannah dragged him along like a goat, then back up your claim by debunking his strategy (and also acknowledging that they weren't even each other's number one allies - Adam was much tighter with Ken and Jessica) and not just saying he didn't do anything or that Hannah was a power player that knew what she was doing (or, if you're going to say that, then list examples of what she was doing and why she was making those moves for herself and not because David told her to and why they helped her game in any way more than voting David out). Hannah may have tried playing for herself, but she was not able to articulate why voting out Sunday and Bret were good for her game when everyone had identified David as the number 1 target. She didn't have the guts to pull the trigger when she needed to at 5, and David had a much better challenge track record that Bret did - and, being a super fan, she should've known that the final challenge was likely not going to be physical and more mental or endurance-based, both of which David is able to do (seeing as how the two challenges he won were both of those). Bret was not a threat to win that final immunity, and David was. She had zero reason for voting Bret out and it made her come across like someone who couldn't think for themselves or like someone who was too scared of the consequences to actually do anything. She doesn't want to "lose Ken's trust"? She lost everyone else's trust throughout the entire post-merge by flipping on Zeke and proving herself to be an unreliable vote, like Adam mentioned during final tribal. She didn't need Ken's trust to move forward one vote if she had made the move she needed his trust for (voting out David) the tribal before. And, hell, she didn't even need to vote for him. Adam had the idol, if Hannah doesn't blab about that to David then she can just play dumb and go along with that and let Adam idol out David. No blood on her hands and she still has Ken's trust.

I mean, come on. David was the biggest target for 6 goddamn tribal councils and everyone knew it. The players in the majority knew it, the players in the minority knew it, and the players on the jury most certainly knew it because they were all there because of him. When Hannah and Ken both have prime opportunities to get him out, and they don't take those opportunities (especially at the final 5), they come across as weak players that are being controlled by the biggest threat in the game and that just gives David more stock and makes him that much harder to beat because he can say "yeah, Zeke and I went at it at final 10, and from then on everyone knew they needed me out, but no one was able to do it" and that'd be the end of it because Hannah and Ken wouldn't be able to back any of their moves up with David sitting next to them. All Hannah would have as talking points would be flipping on Zeke, and voting out Sunday and voting out Bret, all of which just helped David get to the end.

Or, if you want to criticize Adam's game, then go ahead and criticize how Sandra won Heroes vs. Villains because they basically played the exact same game. They stayed under the radar, made sure the target wasn't them, leaned on their social connections when they needed to, they weren't able to make moves because everyone else was being stupid, and they were able to sit there at final tribal and say something along the lines of "I told everyone this guy was going to get to the end if you didn't do anything and I was the only one that was trying to make something happen". Adam had the good fortune of both Hannah and Ken realizing at the last damn second they needed to get David out (unlike Sandra, who had to deal with Russell for all 39 days because everyone was being stupid), but they would've been screwed if David won that immunity and it would've been their fault for letting that happen because time and time again they did nothing to stop him.

[Hayden]

And yet Hannah and Ken dominated that final immunity and David would've torn Adam to pieces in fire making.

Hannah stole the credit that Adam would've gotten for idoling out David in a BIGMOVE DURRR. But the Jury still didn't appreciate that she jammed the knife in, not Adam.

Maybe Hannah would've won if 6 women weren't assassinated before the merge even began. Then she wouldn't sit next to any men in the Final 3 and would win 10-0.

[Aya♥]

So, I have yet to comment on this season, until well...that tribal counsel.  Talk about making a show, more than 30 seasons long, still entertaining.  That was perhaps the wildest tribal ever.

[Hayden]

Go Tai/Sierra/Hali!

[terminoob]

Woof. This is gonna be a long season.

[Clappy]

On 3/23/2017 at 7:49 PM, terminoob said:

Woof. This is gonna be a long season.

Tell me about it.  I know it's very early but outside of Tony vs Sandra in the first episode and that tribal, I'm not feeling everything else just yet.  I think part of the problem is WAY TOO MANY undeserving second, third, and fourth time contestants.  Let's take a look at Cirie for example.  Did anybody ask to see her play again?  I sure as hell didn't because if you pull back the aura of convincing Erik to part with his idol from S16, she really hasn't done anything of notability in her three previous go arounds.  I don't define her as game changing, more so as half of this cast.

I hope this season doesn't rely this heavily on shocking twists and turns for gimmick purposes of this season title.  Because if so, I'm going to be bored very quickly.

[terminoob]

1 hour ago, Clappy said:

Tell me about it.  I know it's very early but outside of Tony vs Sandra in the first episode and that tribal, I'm not feeling everything else just yet.  I think part of the problem is WAY TOO MANY undeserving second, third, and fourth time contestants.  Let's take a look at Cirie for example.  Did anybody ask to see her play again?  I sure as hell didn't because if you pull back the aura of convincing Erik to part with his idol from S16, she really hasn't done anything of notability in her three previous go arounds.  I don't define her as game changing, more so as half of this cast.

I hope this season doesn't rely this heavily on shocking twists and turns for gimmick purposes of this season title.  Because if so, I'm going to be bored very quickly.

I believe the season will, in fact, rely heavily on shocking twists and turns for gimmick purposes, if I'm remembering Jeff's pre-season interview about this correctly. I think he said he was gonna be throwing a bunch of twists at the cast to see how the handle it, and that idols could be anywhere (he teased one being at tribal). I'm not looking forward to the rest of it. They need to just let these players play and make good TV by just being who they are, instead of trying to force good TV through twists and crap. If the season keeps going at this breakneck pace it's just all gonna be exhausting and boring to look at.

As far as the cast goes... I'm mostly fine with them. I'm really not a fan of any of the Koah Rong people they chose (seriously, Tai/Caleb over Scot/Jason?), Ciera, or Sandra, but the rest I'm either neutral on or really like. Cirie I think is deserving of a spot but I'm not too excited to see her hear, because I know if she makes it far then all of her fans are gonna yell from the rooftops that she's finally getting her due even though she got massively outplayed in HvV and can only do well strategically if she's in a season where no one else knows what they're doing (Panama, Micronesia). I'll contest that she hasn't done anything of nobility, though - she wiggled her way out of being the first boot of Panama, was Aras' righthand as being instrumental in holding the Casaya alliance together, orchestrated the 3-2-1 Courtney boot, and "got off the couch" (if I'm remembering correctly she was the first contestant that was being "advertised" as that archetype, which is huge). I don't remember her Micronesia game as well, aside from her being kind of entitled at the start and the Erik thing, but I think her Panama game more than makes her qualified as a game changer.

My main problem though is that so many of these players just flat out sucked their first/second/third times and now they're coming back and it's just a really low-level cast in terms of strategy and entertainment. Zeke got duped by David and cut Chris too soon, Troyzan may have realized Kim was running the game but he still let her do what she wanted with him for a bit, Sarah blew up her own game by being too cocky, I don't remember anything Hali or Sierra did, and Varner just isn't good at the game. Brad's basically the top strategist of the season.

[Hayden]

Of the 16 left, Cirie/JT/Ozzy/Zeke/Brad/Debbie are the ones I'm very bored with and dislike.

Varner and Aubry have been tolerable because of how little time they've gotten.

I'm ironically rooting for Troyzan. Sarah/Andrea haven't provided any wow factor yet, but I'm neutral to them. Impossible to say if Michaela learnt from her previous mistakes yet.

Sandra works better as an underdog, but at least her negative leader arc is something brand new.

 

[Hayden]

5 minutes ago, terminoob said:

I believe the season will, in fact, rely heavily on shocking twists and turns for gimmick purposes, if I'm remembering Jeff's pre-season interview about this correctly. I think he said he was gonna be throwing a bunch of twists at the cast to see how the handle it, and that idols could be anywhere (he teased one being at tribal). I'm not looking forward to the rest of it. They need to just let these players play and make good TV by just being who they are, instead of trying to force good TV through twists and crap. If the season keeps going at this breakneck pace it's just all gonna be exhausting and boring to look at.

As far as the cast goes... I'm mostly fine with them. I'm really not a fan of any of the Koah Rong people they chose (seriously, Tai/Caleb over Scot/Jason?), Ciera, or Sandra, but the rest I'm either neutral on or really like. Cirie I think is deserving of a spot but I'm not too excited to see her hear, because I know if she makes it far then all of her fans are gonna yell from the rooftops that she's finally getting her due even though she got massively outplayed in HvV and can only do well strategically if she's in a season where no one else knows what they're doing (Panama, Micronesia). I'll contest that she hasn't done anything of nobility, though - she wiggled her way out of being the first boot of Panama, was Aras' righthand as being instrumental in holding the Casaya alliance together, orchestrated the 3-2-1 Courtney boot, and "got off the couch" (if I'm remembering correctly she was the first contestant that was being "advertised" as that archetype, which is huge). I don't remember her Micronesia game as well, aside from her being kind of entitled at the start and the Erik thing, but I think her Panama game more than makes her qualified as a game changer.

My main problem though is that so many of these players just flat out sucked their first/second/third times and now they're coming back and it's just a really low-level cast in terms of strategy and entertainment. Zeke got duped by David and cut Chris too soon, Troyzan may have realized Kim was running the game but he still let her do what she wanted with him for a bit, Sarah blew up her own game by being too cocky, I don't remember anything Hali or Sierra did, and Varner just isn't good at the game. Brad's basically the top strategist of the season.

Brad's a goat and I hope Scot/Jason never return after that shit they pulled with Alecia. Probst also hates them for being bitter at Aubry.

[terminoob]

Just now, Hayden said:

Brad's a goat and I hope Scot/Jason never return after that shit they pulled with Alecia. Probst also hates them for being bitter at Aubry.

Brad might end up as a goat but he's at least doing something. He's like if Ken from last season did literally anything at all. He's not making any high-level plays or being absolutely outstanding, but he's doing something, which is more than basically anyone else is doing.

[Hayden]

Brad is "doing something" because the edit wants to glorify him. Sierra is also in that Brad pair and is the one that got Tai to give up his idol info and play it on her.

Malcolm was also Sierra's suggestion.

All the Culpepper douche has done is take out Caleb. (Who isn't a threat in any known universe)