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Clappy

Hollywood Sexual Misconduct Scandals

34 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Katniss said:

I just feel like an idiot. Some people here are so smart and I'm not really that smart at all. I don't know why I keep giving my opinion.

Aw! Don't feel that way at all! There's actually quite a lot of topics that I know pretty much nothing about. :(

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6 hours ago, Mr. Dr. Professor Patrick said:

As much as I want to say that we should immediately believe the victim, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. I'm not talking about you or anyone on SBC specifically, but I am really tired of seeing feminists going around saying that the police and courts should immediately take the victim's side. If that's the case, Jennifer Aniston raped me, believe me guys! Give me lots of money! And people would do it. Ohhhhhh people would definitely do it for the money. Hell, there's even a Wikipedia page about false allegations of child sexual abuse. Isn't that just sad?

I mean, just check out this article of what's happening in Congress. Over 30 senators said "if the allegations are true," and the media is pretty much exploding over the "if true" part. Well yeah, why disqualify someone if it's not true? Innocent until proven guilty is a thing, feminists. Let's not ruin lives before checking the receipts. 🙄

The possible sexual assault victims which you linked to have been further doxxed and harassed online because of attitudes rooted in rap culture where we don't believe survivors. Look, innocent until proven guilty, and all that, but use your brain. Women are still coming forward after these doxxing and harassment incidents; I think it's safe to say that they're not looking for a quick and easy buck. They're looking to get a child molester out of running for candidacy.

Also, I'm really not happy with the strawman paintbrush you constantly use to target feminists. I get that you've had bad experiences or whatever, but to characterize all feminists as man-hating rabid dogs is irresponsible and harmful discourse, and you should really know better.

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5 hours ago, Katniss said:

I just feel like an idiot. Some people here are so smart and I'm not really that smart at all. I don't know why I keep giving my opinion.

MDPP already made a comment on your post but lemme say this. Just because you don't have enough knowledge of a subject, that doesn't mean you aren't smart. Smart people don't know everything and some of their discussion can be wrong. So no need to feel so bad about this situation. I did like your reply and your first post on this topic shows how thoughtful and smart you are. :)

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12 hours ago, Katniss said:

I suck at making arguments don't listen to me

 

4 hours ago, Katniss said:

I just feel like an idiot. Some people here are so smart and I'm not really that smart at all. I don't know why I keep giving my opinion.

Let me further comment on this.  Kat, you know how much of a friend you are to me and I to you, but I seriously don’t like seeing you so hard on yourself every time something like this happens.  You are massively incorrect about your intelligence levels.  The woman who posted this:

On 11/13/2017 at 8:29 AM, Katniss said:

I know people are going to say "why didn't these people speak up sooner?" But it's not that easy. There's the general trauma of being sexually assaulted, fear of not being believed or accused of lying, not to mention the fact that your career could be in jeopardy. I read something that Matt Damon worked to squash a story a journalist was writing about Harvey Weinstein a while back.

The system has to change. Women and men are being taken advantage of by powerful men in the industry and that's not right. Even if it's just a lewd comment and they don't actually force themselves on someone, it's still not right. I hope all these celebrities getting exposed inspires there to be something done. But it hurts that people who made some of our favorite movies and TV shows are really slimy, awful people.

Does not suck at stating her opinions.  Just because two people have a different stance as you doesn’t mean you suck at making arguments.  Shoot, if I had a dollar for every time I misinterpret what I meant on here, I would be the richest man on this site in real life instead of one of the poorest haha.

What I’m trying to say is that you have to have a little more faith in yourself girl.  You’re awesome and every time I see you be so self loathing is just not fair to yourself.

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Makes me not want to pursue acting any further......ehhh still gonna do it tho lmao. But this whole thing has members of my family constantly tell me “as you go further with this, be careful.” and “always speak your mind.” And it’s like damn we shouldn’t have to be subjected to this in the first place whether it be in the entertainment industry or our own lives! However, you either let it bring you down or stop the motherfuckers in their tracks. Look I’m not being “feminist” or whatever I’m just stating the facts for anybody who could be going through this. If something doesn’t seem right, speak up!

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52 minutes ago, Clappy said:

 

Let me further comment on this.  Kat, you know how much of a friend you are to me and I to you, but I seriously don’t like seeing you so hard on yourself every time something like this happens.  You are massively incorrect about your intelligence levels.  The woman who posted this:

Does not suck at stating her opinions.  Just because two people have a different stance as you doesn’t mean you suck at making arguments.  Shoot, if I had a dollar for every time I misinterpret what I meant on here, I would be the richest man on this site in real life instead of one of the poorest haha.

What I’m trying to say is that you have to have a little more faith in yourself girl.  You’re awesome and every time I see you be so self loathing is just not fair to yourself.

I'm sorry :/ I just have major self-esteem issues sometimes and get embarrassed easily. I'm trying to work on it. And I'm sorry for bringing the mood down in this thread.

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50 minutes ago, Wumbo said:

The possible sexual assault victims which you linked to have been further doxxed and harassed online because of attitudes rooted in rap culture where we don't believe survivors. Look, innocent until proven guilty, and all that, but use your brain. Women are still coming forward after these doxxing and harassment incidents; I think it's safe to say that they're not looking for a quick and easy buck. They're looking to get a child molester out of running for candidacy.

Also, I'm really not happy with the strawman paintbrush you constantly use to target feminists. I get that you've had bad experiences or whatever, but to characterize all feminists as man-hating rabid dogs is irresponsible and harmful discourse, and you should really know better.

It's really funny that you attack me for mentioning, gasp, something negative about feminists, but then you go around and you attack me for, as you say, having "bad experiences or whatever." You should know better than to personally attack someone, and all it does is proves that you don't have an argument. I am also not painting a strawman on feminists when there are articles like this and this floating around.

The truth in the matter is that there are enough false accusations that there needs to be a systematic process for handling cases. While there are wonderful articles about how the process to report sexual assault is difficult, especially in Congress where one has to go through at least a month of counseling before you can even submit paperwork to begin the process, it's not acceptable to just take the word of the victim. You cannot accurately say that "they're not looking for a quick and easy buck" for every case. That's just nonsense.

Take this quote:

Quote

How frequent are false accusations? A commonly cited estimate, which may have originated with feminist author Susan Brownmiller in the 1970s, is that they account for only about 2 percent of rape reports. After the Oberst fiasco, feminist blogger Rebecca Watson posted a video asserting that, statistically, you will be wrong two out of 100 times if you presume a rape accusation to be true and 98 out of 100 times if you presume it to be false.

Source: Crying Rape, Slate, Sept. 18, 2014

Another source is from the FBI itself:

Quote

The article begins by reviewing up-to-date research suggesting that the rate of false reporting for sexual assault is in the range of 2-8%.

Source: False Reports: Moving Beyond the Issue to Successfully Investigate and Prosecute Non-Stranger Sexual Assault, 2009.

And what do you think will happen if we just start automatically believing every single victim's allegations without further investigation? We actually see this every single day with child sexual assault. Paul Stuckle, a lawyer in Texas who works exclusively on false assault allegations, writes:

Quote

Our criminal justice system states that if the jury has a "reasonable doubt" then it must find the defendant "not guilty." This theory simply does not apply to child sexual assault cases. The jury must be convinced they are not letting a child molester off and back into the community. The jury must absolutely believe in the innocence of the defendant. The state does not have to prove guilt, but simply make the accusation. Once the accusation is made, the defendant must prove innocence beyond a reasonable doubt. Failing that, the jury will not take a chance the defendant may be a child molester, and will convict.

Source: A Criminal Defense Attorneys View Of False Child Sexual Assault Allegations, Paul Stuckle, 2004

It is not farfetched to think that what happens with child sexual assault won't happen with adult sexual assault cases. If we start undoubtedly believing that the victim is correct, then, as Stuckle claims, the defendant must prove himself innocent instead of guilty to the jury because of the mindset that society holds of how we view sexual assault. We don't want a molester or a sexual assaulter to be on our streets, therefore we have a tendency to convict them easily with little proof, and this is not right.

Look, I'm not saying that every single case out there is false. Far from it. I am glad that victims are able to step forward and do what's right. What I do support, however, is creating a new systematic process in which it is easy and affordable for victims to go to their local courthouse, report sexual assault, and be fairly evaluated in a timely manner. It's not some joke that can be played with. Being accused of sexually assaulting can ruin anyone's life, and while most cases (98% as mentioned above) are in fact real, there is enough cases that we can't just believe the victim completely without investigating.

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I am not "attacking" you, I am calling you out on your constant bullshit arguments that the most militant, unreasonable people in a movement are representative of the entire movement. You don't use the Westboro Baptist Church to represent Christians, so don't paint all feminists with the same brush. Hell, I actually saw where you are coming from because you told me about bad experiences you had with feminist ideology. How the hell was that an attack on you? I'm just saying that a more nuanced approach is necessary for discussions such as these, regardless of the experiences we have. And the very idea that you counter my points with claiming personal attack on yourself goes to show that your argument is faulty. I don't hate you as a person. I hate the vile things that are implied in your postings about feminism. Please don't make this about personalities, dude. I'm going off of what you say.

47 minutes ago, Mr. Dr. Professor Patrick said:

You cannot accurately say that "they're not looking for a quick and easy buck" for every case. That's just nonsense.

Show me where I said "every case". Do you honestly think that, in the example you provided, these women are looking to receive easy payment, especially after it was clearly shown what happens to people who come forward about sexual assault with this very case?

Look. False allegations do happen. But more often than not, they are true allegations, and it is very difficult to find enough proof to convict a rapist of any sort of crime. This is why these crimes go under-reported, which happens hella more often than false accusations do.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

This is a less than 1% chance of a rapist actually being convicted. Even with false accusations, the system we have created does not punish rapists for their crimes. What then, exactly, does anyone have to gain from false accusations?

Your "Crying Rape" article that you link to hand-waves the idea of drunkenness being an indicator of inability to give consent, which is problematic in its own right, and cherry-picks reactions from people regarding the Max Temkin case. It's true that false rape accusations can ruin a life. But let's not pretend that there aren't thorny issues surrounding consent that make the whole thing blurry to begin with.

Lastly, and I think this is the crux of what should be said here: believing the victim does not mean "throw the perp in jail with no evidence". It means creating an environment that makes victims comfortable to come forward and share their stories. The overarching problem is not an influx of men's lives being ruined because of false accusations. It is a problem which silences victims and makes them afraid to come forward, and responding to victims with the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" may hold water in court, but it is the culture surrounding this that needs the change.

12 minutes ago, Homie❤ said:

glad we have long off-topic arguments on serious topics

What, exactly, is off topic about this discussion?

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3 minutes ago, Wumbo said:

I am calling you out on your constant bullshit arguments that the most militant, unreasonable people in a movement are representative of the entire movement.

Using language like "bullshit" is attacking me whether you realize it or not. You can disagree, and I respect that disagree, but to say that my arguments are bullshit is to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about, which is attacking. Sorry. 😟

5 minutes ago, Wumbo said:

Show me where I said "every case".

Sure:

2 hours ago, Wumbo said:

Women are still coming forward after these doxxing and harassment incidents; I think it's safe to say that they're not looking for a quick and easy buck.

You generalized women. By doing so, you've made an overreaching claim that it's safe to assume that women are not lying about their cases. I made the defense against this and said that we shouldn't be so quick to assume that it's safe to completely believe them all the time.

7 minutes ago, Wumbo said:

Your "Crying Rape" article that you link to hand-waves the idea of drunkenness being an indicator of inability to give consent, which is problematic in its own right, and cherry-picks reactions from people regarding the Max Temkin case. It's true that false rape accusations can ruin a life. But let's not pretend that there aren't thorny issues surrounding consent that make the whole thing blurry to begin with.

You just did a classic example of cherry picking, the very thing you just said the "Crying Rape" article does. I also linked a FBI article to further back up the claim as I knew that the source was not completely trustworthy. By ignoring that I linked two sources, you've just tried to make my argument seem less legitimate by cherry picking details of it. In fact, you took one of the two sources and ripped it apart without considering why I sourced it in the first place: to prove that there is a significant number of false allegations.

9 minutes ago, Wumbo said:

Lastly, and I think this is the crux of what should be said here: believing the victim does not mean "throw the perp in jail with no evidence". It means creating an environment that makes victims comfortable to come forward and share their stories. The overarching problem is not an influx of men's lives being ruined because of false accusations. It is a problem which silences victims and makes them afraid to come forward, and responding to victims with the notion of "innocent until proven guilty" may hold water in court, but it is the culture surrounding this that needs the change.

I absolutely agree. If none of the victims feel like they can reach out and seek help, then none of this discussion is relevant. The culture does need to change, but also keep in mind that we should not always assume that the victim is right, neither should we always assume that the defendant is always right. We should look at both sides carefully and find the truth. I think the government should also include therapy for victims so that they can handle their PTSD or other disorders that came from the attack.

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4 minutes ago, Mr. Dr. Professor Patrick said:

Using language like "bullshit" is attacking me whether you realize it or not. You can disagree, and I respect that disagree, but to say that my arguments are bullshit is to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about, which is attacking. Sorry. 1f61f.png

So, your argument is that we should judge feminism by its most militant members? Yeah, I vehemently disagree with that, which is why I call it "bullshit". Sorry if my militant tone offends you, but yes, I do suggest that you are misguided in your statement. That's how disagreements work. Go back to what I said. Would you generalize all Christians as Westboro Baptist Church funeral protesters? No? Then why are you doing this for feminists?

7 minutes ago, Mr. Dr. Professor Patrick said:

You generalized women. By doing so, you've made an overreaching claim that it's safe to assume that women are not lying about their cases. I made the defense against this and said that we shouldn't be so quick to assume that it's safe to completely believe them all the time.

This was in direct response to the Roy Moore case which you linked. I admit my wording could have been clearer, but in this specific case, yes, women are still coming forward with allegations against Roy Moore, even after witnessing the consequences of assholes on Twitter doxxing people who have already come forward. That is not a generalization, that is one case. And you don't go for a cash grab if you're going to be instantly, nastily vilified for doing so, which is what is happening amidst the support.

 

10 minutes ago, Mr. Dr. Professor Patrick said:

You just did a classic example of cherry picking, the very thing you just said the "Crying Rape" article does. I also linked a FBI article to further back up the claim as I knew that the source was not completely trustworthy. By ignoring that I linked two sources, you've just tried to make my argument seem less legitimate by cherry picking details of it. In fact, you took one of the two sources and ripped it apart without considering why I sourced it in the first place: to prove that there is a significant number of false allegations.

I did this to show that research on false rape accusations are problematic in general and do come with their bias, which is rampant in the "Crying Rape" article. I really just don't think it's useful to bring up in a discussion about this topic on how false rape accusations do exist!! Yes, they do, but we're not dealing with that. Many of the claims made about the Hollywood stars can be backed up with evidence and even admittance from the perpetrators themselves.

 

13 minutes ago, Mr. Dr. Professor Patrick said:

I absolutely agree. If none of the victims feel like they can reach out and seek help, then none of this discussion is relevant. The culture does need to change, but also keep in mind that we should not always assume that the victim is right, neither should we always assume that the defendant is always right. We should look at both sides carefully and find the truth. I think the government should also include therapy for victims so that they can handle their PTSD or other disorders that came from the attack.

For me, it's not even about assuming that the victim is right, it's about believing them. That sounds contradictory, but if someone comes up to you alleging that something happened to them, then I don't think the response should be "well, let's look at the facts of the case and see whether you're telling the truth". That sort of response creates the toxic culture which makes victims afraid to come forward in the first place. It's about empathy, and recognizing that unreported sexual assault happens a lot more often than you'd think.

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You have no idea how shocked my dad was when I told him about Louis CK. He is one of his favorite comedians and hearing about his story made him lose all respect for CK's work. Even if I didn't like him as much as my dad did, I enjoyed a little bit of his FX series. After this though, I don't think I can even look at him the same way ever again. I really hope all of these celebrities take a good look at themselves in the mirror and fucking realize that they're losing everyone's respect.

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This is what kinda makes this so necessary: for years and years, Hollywood bigwigs have gotten away with this in monstrous capacity. Now that the curtain's been pulled, these guys are realizing that they will suffer consequences, and thank god for that.

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