Jump to content
  • Advertisement

Orlando Nightclub Shooting


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Halibut said:

Well that phrase might be a bit wrong, so if I can make it statistically right, we can do "There's obviously more Islamist extremists who commit attacks and kill a ton of people than Christian extremists who do it."

There are Christian nutjobs out there for sure, but statistically speaking, the amount of times they commit heinous acts in the name of their religion doesn't even come close to what the Islamic extremists do. The day we go out fighting Christian extremists is the day they're willing to bomb a bunch of crap all over Europe and the Middle East.

Can you consider these people true Muslims? Slaveholders in the US justified their system of bondage with their faith. I think in the post 9/11 decade, there have been Islamist extremism than that of Christianity, but as a whole, Christians (as far as I can tell) have been just as bad as Muslims. Historically, in Europe, Christians of different sects have killed other Christians at a huge rate. St. Bart's Massacre, anyone? Being that Islam and Christianity share the Old Testament and are essentially brother religions, I'd venture to say they're both responsible for a majority of the world's anguish – not one disproportionately more than the other. 

That being said, the sensationalist media definitely plays up Islam as an evil religion more than it does Christianity, and I think that's because the western world is largely Christian. There is an East v. West mentality that they seem to like, an "us" v. "them" that is required to exist for whatever reason. I think that this has also inspired a lot of people to take up arms and commit acts of terror and put it arbitrarily under the banner of Islam. 

I wonder if this attack had been carried out by a Christian – and it's very plausible it could have been – if the Republicans crying "radical Islam" would have similarly labeled it "radical Christianity."

Additionally, Islamic terrorists are in the minority. The overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks in the world are carried out by non-Muslims, which is not the message you'd be conveyed if you turned on the TV.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alright @Halibutand @tvguy, try not to go too deep into the subject, we can discuss this calmly but no arguments against each other will be allowed.

There's extremists in just about every religion, there's even Buddhist and Jewish extremists but that doesn't mean they represent an entire faith. It sucks to learn that people like the gunman have to resort to violence over a certain point of view. If I had certain points of views i'd keep them to myself and not make other people pay for something they're not guilty of. Of course, there will always be those that generalize certain people groups but you shouldn't believe everything the media tells you, minorities are sometimes too vocal that they get more attention than the majority of one group, its sad but its what it happens in a lot of places. I can only hope this doesn't cause more islamophobia which is unfair to normal and peaceful muslims.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, crushingmayhem said:

Alright @Halibutand @tvguy, try not to go too deep into the subject, we can discuss this calmly but no arguments against each other will be allowed.

There's extremists in just about every religion, there's even Buddhist and Jewish extremists but that doesn't mean they represent an entire faith. It sucks to learn that people like the gunman have to resort to violence over a certain point of view. If I had certain points of views i'd keep them to myself and not make other people pay for something they're not guilty of. Of course, there will always be those that generalize certain people groups but you shouldn't believe everything the media tells you, minorities are sometimes too vocal that they get more attention than the majority of one group, its sad but its what it happens in a lot of places. I can only hope this doesn't cause more islamophobia which is unfair to normal and peaceful muslims.

We were being anything but calm? This is a forum, for discussing things. Unless Halibut or I posted anything offensive, neither of us broke any SBC Rules bud. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, tvguy said:

We were being anything but calm? This is a forum, for discussing things. Unless Halibut or I posted anything offensive, neither of us broke any SBC Rules bud. 

I don't think you came off as angry, but to other people you may have came off as scathing or a little heated.

 

12 hours ago, Halibut said:

Well that phrase might be a bit wrong, so if I can make it statistically right, we can do "There's obviously more Islamist extremists who commit attacks and kill a ton of people than Christian extremists who do it."

There are Christian nutjobs out there for sure, but statistically speaking, the amount of times they commit heinous acts in the name of their religion doesn't even come close to what the Islamic extremists do. The day we go out fighting Christian extremists is the day they're willing to bomb a bunch of crap all over Europe and the Middle East.

I concur with this. I come from a mostly religious family myself.

 

8 hours ago, tvguy said:

Can you consider these people true Muslims? Slaveholders in the US justified their system of bondage with their faith. I think in the post 9/11 decade, there have been Islamist extremism than that of Christianity, but as a whole, Christians (as far as I can tell) have been just as bad as Muslims. Historically, in Europe, Christians of different sects have killed other Christians at a huge rate. St. Bart's Massacre, anyone? Being that Islam and Christianity share the Old Testament and are essentially brother religions, I'd venture to say they're both responsible for a majority of the world's anguish – not one disproportionately more than the other. 

That being said, the sensationalist media definitely plays up Islam as an evil religion more than it does Christianity, and I think that's because the western world is largely Christian. There is an East v. West mentality that they seem to like, an "us" v. "them" that is required to exist for whatever reason. I think that this has also inspired a lot of people to take up arms and commit acts of terror and put it arbitrarily under the banner of Islam. 

I wonder if this attack had been carried out by a Christian – and it's very plausible it could have been – if the Republicans crying "radical Islam" would have similarly labeled it "radical Christianity."

Additionally, Islamic terrorists are in the minority. The overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks in the world are carried out by non-Muslims, which is not the message you'd be conveyed if you turned on the TV.   

You could say people who don't follow a religious book 100% literally, or people who don't, true followers of any said religion. That's a bit disingenuous and is ignoring the issue at fault here that Islam as a religion is incredibly toxic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, tvguy said:

Can you consider these people true Muslims? Slaveholders in the US justified their system of bondage with their faith. I think in the post 9/11 decade, there have been Islamist extremism than that of Christianity, but as a whole, Christians (as far as I can tell) have been just as bad as Muslims. Historically, in Europe, Christians of different sects have killed other Christians at a huge rate. St. Bart's Massacre, anyone? Being that Islam and Christianity share the Old Testament and are essentially brother religions, I'd venture to say they're both responsible for a majority of the world's anguish – not one disproportionately more than the other. 

That being said, the sensationalist media definitely plays up Islam as an evil religion more than it does Christianity, and I think that's because the western world is largely Christian. There is an East v. West mentality that they seem to like, an "us" v. "them" that is required to exist for whatever reason. I think that this has also inspired a lot of people to take up arms and commit acts of terror and put it arbitrarily under the banner of Islam. 

I wonder if this attack had been carried out by a Christian – and it's very plausible it could have been – if the Republicans crying "radical Islam" would have similarly labeled it "radical Christianity."

Additionally, Islamic terrorists are in the minority. The overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks in the world are carried out by non-Muslims, which is not the message you'd be conveyed if you turned on the TV.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_January–June_2016

Give me a source besides Wikipedia if you want, but if this article says anything, an insane amount of terrorist attacks are directly connected with either ISIS or some other Islamic terrorist group. The reason the West is threatened by Islamic terrorism is because they're the ones that have been fed the most attention by us. This does nothing but make them grow.

Also, "sensationalist media" plays up Islam as evil? I have a bit of a tough time believing this with how many news outlets I notice that put way more focus on what people like Trump have to say about the religion. If you're talking about Islamic terrorism being overreported, I already said what needed to be said on that.

Also with what you said about "radical Christianity" and such, I do admit that you are right; they would unfairly not bother labeling it that. The only problem I see with it, though, is that when ISIS and other terrorists actively say that they are doing this for the sake of Islam- multiplied by the amount of people either in ISIS or who want to join it- it honestly is kinda tough to label it anything other than "radical Islam".

 

And I know I sound like I could be beating a dead horse, but please don't forget to take note that I am not against Islam as a whole; that would be tough when you have Islamic parents. That being said, even my parents agree that radical Islam is a very big problem going on in the world. Don't forget that there was a brief period where Iran was a Western-influenced country that had a whole lot of freedom until the fundamentalists came around to completely destroy the Western values. That's exactly the kind of stuff that both moderate Muslims and non-Muslims alike want to see eliminated.

 

Also, "Can you consider these people true Muslims?" is what people like to call a "No True Scotsman." This is the exact same type of rhetoric that conservative blowhards use to dismiss all of the good Muslims as not real Muslims.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest hilaryfan80

I'm laughing at the thought that some people here believe that Christians and white people have never done acts of terrorism before...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/abortviolence/stories/salvi.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Austin_suicide_attack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny#Native_Americans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

Terrorism has always been around. Always has. This is nothing new by any means. Our perception of terrorism, the idea that Muslims are dangerous people, is new and unfair, and it's strongly perpetuated by our news media outlets (e.g. CNN). In fact, Christians have a much bloodier history than Muslims would even hope to dream (those crusades and missionaries were bloody). Honestly, I would even go as far as to say that saying that Muslims are terrorists is considered hate speech, which is not allowed on SBC, because it is so incredibly inaccurate and wrong. Christians have more of a claim on that title than Muslims do.

That being said, I just hope that America finally does something about terrorism and puts a plan into action against those who commit these horrible crimes regardless of the person's religion or race. Everyone here says that they wish for the best for the families of the victims, but sadly it's never enough. I know if my brother had died that night in Orlando, no amount of prayers, wishes, and healing rituals would ever fill in that void. It's truly tragic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Halibut said:

ISIS officially managed to get to the US and cause major trouble here. We were all pointing fingers at each other over Islam and gun control, and right under our noses, they manage to come through. We have nobody to blame but ourselves. Screw you all and screw me too for being stupid enough to let this happen. We couldn't work on the solution together, and now we're paying for it. Just watch, people will still be defending Islam despite its growing over-fundamentalism, and then other people will have a field day talking about how all Muslims are bad and that they shouldn't be in the country.

ALL of you, including me, helped cause this, and we're all going to take part in making it worse instead of coming up with a solution.

Water is wet? I don't understand why you wasted time posting such a depressing and defeatist statement full of information that 

A.) everyone already knows and

B.) makes only the slightest bit of sense. 

Failing to understand how a teenager like you had anything to do with "letting" something like this happen. 

Like I get being angry but why make a post getting mad and pointing fingers instead of just posting condolences and at the very least trying to think of a solution? Who wants to hear a "we're fucked" tirade during a time like this? I just don't understand the thought process behind this one. 

My prayers to everyone affected and the families of those injured or killed. Awful that hate-fueled things like this still happen and we can't all just live together. 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bada Bing Nuggets said:

Water is wet? I don't understand why you wasted time posting such a depressing and defeatist statement full of information that 

A.) everyone already knows and

B.) makes only the slightest bit of sense. 

Failing to understand how a teenager like you had anything to do with "letting" something like this happen. 

Like I get being angry but why make a post getting mad and pointing fingers instead of just posting condolences and at the very least trying to think of a solution? Who wants to hear a "we're fucked" tirade during a time like this? I just don't understand the thought process behind this one. 

My prayers to everyone affected and the families of those injured or killed. Awful that hate-fueled things like this still happen and we can't all just live together. 

Yeah, I really am sorry. That was a vent post really, and I should've been more respectful. :/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some of the stuff in this thread is gross, I'm sorry.

This was a terrorist attack and (don't forget) a hate crime. It was performed by a psychotic bigot. Of course, the bigot had a Muslim-sounding name so Fox News is going to run with that. If it was a white guy, of course we'd be hearing about how he was mentally ill by now.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, 70s said:

Some of the stuff in this thread is gross, I'm sorry.

This was a terrorist attack and (don't forget) a hate crime. It was performed by a psychotic bigot. Of course, the bigot had a Muslim-sounding name so Fox News is going to run with that. If it was a white guy, of course we'd be hearing about how he was mentally ill by now.

There are people forgetting that it's a hate crime?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Halibut said:

There are people forgetting that it's a hate crime?

I've seen a few people denying that the shooter was targeting them due to them being gay (even though it's pretty obvious that was his motive...) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Daydream✰ said:

I've seen a few people denying that the shooter was targeting them due to them being gay (even though it's pretty obvious that was his motive...) 

Oh yeah, I know at least one person you're referring to

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, 70s said:

Some of the stuff in this thread is gross, I'm sorry.

This was a terrorist attack and (don't forget) a hate crime. It was performed by a psychotic bigot. Of course, the bigot had a Muslim-sounding name so Fox News is going to run with that. If it was a white guy, of course we'd be hearing about how he was mentally ill by now.

Appearently, his ex-wife has stated that he was mentaly ill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, sbnator20 said:

She did, she said that he physically abused her

Oh, okay. Yeah, that plus connecting himself with ISIS are two of the most easily surefire ways to know that he was mentally ill in some way.

Damn shame that we can't get all that many answers though, now that he's dead and all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I give my condolences to those who died in this horrific massacre, but...

19 hours ago, tvguy said:

Can you consider these people true Muslims? Slaveholders in the US justified their system of bondage with their faith. I think in the post 9/11 decade, there have been Islamist extremism than that of Christianity, but as a whole, Christians (as far as I can tell) have been just as bad as Muslims. Historically, in Europe, Christians of different sects have killed other Christians at a huge rate. St. Bart's Massacre, anyone? Being that Islam and Christianity share the Old Testament and are essentially brother religions, I'd venture to say they're both responsible for a majority of the world's anguish – not one disproportionately more than the other. 

That being said, the sensationalist media definitely plays up Islam as an evil religion more than it does Christianity, and I think that's because the western world is largely Christian. There is an East v. West mentality that they seem to like, an "us" v. "them" that is required to exist for whatever reason. I think that this has also inspired a lot of people to take up arms and commit acts of terror and put it arbitrarily under the banner of Islam. 

I wonder if this attack had been carried out by a Christian – and it's very plausible it could have been – if the Republicans crying "radical Islam" would have similarly labeled it "radical Christianity."

Additionally, Islamic terrorists are in the minority. The overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks in the world are carried out by non-Muslims, which is not the message you'd be conveyed if you turned on the TV.   

 

14 hours ago, Mr. Dr. Professor Patrick said:

I'm laughing at the thought that some people here believe that Christians and white people have never done acts of terrorism before...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/abortviolence/stories/salvi.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Austin_suicide_attack

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny#Native_Americans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

Terrorism has always been around. Always has. This is nothing new by any means. Our perception of terrorism, the idea that Muslims are dangerous people, is new and unfair, and it's strongly perpetuated by our news media outlets (e.g. CNN). In fact, Christians have a much bloodier history than Muslims would even hope to dream (those crusades and missionaries were bloody). Honestly, I would even go as far as to say that saying that Muslims are terrorists is considered hate speech, which is not allowed on SBC, because it is so incredibly inaccurate and wrong. Christians have more of a claim on that title than Muslims do.

That being said, I just hope that America finally does something about terrorism and puts a plan into action against those who commit these horrible crimes regardless of the person's religion or race. Everyone here says that they wish for the best for the families of the victims, but sadly it's never enough. I know if my brother had died that night in Orlando, no amount of prayers, wishes, and healing rituals would ever fill in that void. It's truly tragic.

Okay, are we really going to pull the cis white male argument?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

2180 people in 32 different countries were killed by Islamic extremists. In the past thirty days. And notice how I'm intentionally leaving out the murders that took place a few days ago. Granted, most of these occurred in African or Middle Eastern countries, but that hardly changes anything. Now you name me acts of Christian terrorism that have happened in this time frame, because I highly doubt it'll exceed 226 (if it does I'll eat my hat).

Oh, and for all of you bitching about the Atlantis Slave Trade, keep in mind that the Arab Slave Trade lasted for five times longer, and enslaved both Europeans and Africans alike. Despite its legal status, it is still practiced in parts of the Islamic world.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SStephan/islamic_slavery.htm

http://www.albawaba.com/news/middle-east-slavery-528324

Also keep in mind that the EEVIL cis white males were the first race to outlaw slavery, and the first to create a secular society legal freedom of religion (something most nations with an Islamic majority have a difficult time implementing, or otherwise retaining).

I'm not saying all Christians are innocent, or that all Muslims are guilty, as that would be an incredibly rash assertion. But blaming the white Christian male for everything is equally silly and unprovoked, especially when you consider that most of media outlet, such as CNN, are owned by Jews (who themselves have a beef with Muslims).

But then again, one of you has a profile picture of Bernie Sanders, so I'm not sure why I'm even bothering.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...